Yesterday I apparently shocked the Twitterverse. In reply to InBabyAttachMode‘s question of why my blogging frequency has been less than people might desire, I replied that being a mommy and a scientist is not really compatible with much else. She asked if I think we’ll ever regret mommy sciencehood and I told her that I suspect that we will. I was also open that I wasn’t sure I would be in academia in six to nine months.
{{Cue the moment when Dr. Isis stomps on the hopes and dreams of ladies everywhere}}
InBabyAttachMode wrote a blog post about the conversation, and this comment line really piqued my interest:
“…it makes me feel that if they can’t do it, then neither can I.”
I started to write a comment, but given the number of emails I am also receiving with comments like “but, you seemed so successful…”, I figured a blog might be more appropriate.
I want to be clear again that whether or not I “can” do something is not the issue.
For me, it really has nothing to do about whether I “can’t” do it. By all feedback that I get from my colleagues, I am a fairly well-respected member of the scientific community, a good teacher, etc, etac, etc.
The question for me is what I find fulfilling and how important is that to me compared to how I am rewarded. I’ve been within the walls of the ivory tower for more than a decade and I’m at a point now where I have the opportunity to really consider whether I want to try something new. It’s not unusual in every place but academia for people to look at their careers and say, “Is this really what I want to be doing?” The fact that my career pondering was so shocking to people on Twitter, I would argue, is reflective of mores and atitudes that are unique to academia.
It’s been interesting to me to look back at the endless optimism I blogged with five years ago. It’s not entirely gone, but it has certainly evolved toward practicality. Being an academic scientist (for me) does necessarily mean sacrificing some time with my family. I applaud the people who can do their job in forty hours. That has never been my reality. So, if I am going to be working as hard as I am at the expense of time with my family, it’s worth asking whether it’s really something I want to be doing. Right now I’m not so sure it is. But, maybe it is. As I shared with someone by email, maybe my grass really is the greenest. Or, maybe I’d rather be a fighter pilot, or a porn writer, or a French chef. When we’re training, we are so focused on reaching the dream that it’s impossible to realize that, holy fuck, this is a job that a lot of people do until they die.
But, I’ll tell you, dear readers, that I have also found the reactions of the scientist-o-sphere in general to be disturbing. I have been nothing but honest with you all about my optimisms and my failings, but I am not the holy grail of women scientists. The fact that I have chosen to reconsider my career and happiness is by no means some indication that women in general can’t be successful or happy in science.
You can’t rest your hopes and aspirations for an entire profession on the shoulders of a single person. Franky, it’s not fair to her and you’re likely to be disappointed.
I watched and read the twitter conversation as it happened, but was not shocked or disappointed, but rather encouraged.
The other day I read this article at NY Mag (http://nymag.com/news/features/retro-wife-2013-3/?imw=Y&f=most-emailed-24h5); not to get into what I thought wrong with the article (someone else addressed that here, http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/the-complex-often-idealistic-reasons-feminists-become-housewives/274184/), but I think that it is a great thing that person (man or woman, thought these articles are focused on women) can step outside of their self and assess what we really want, what really would make them happy now. People do not do this often enough. We should all be constantly assessing what it is we are doing, if we are happy doing it, and determining if continuing on that path will provide the fulfillment/happniess/whatever-it-is that we want. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing something for a bit, and then deciding that you want to try something else. Life is too short.
Dr. Isis I have only followed your blog for a short time and quite frankly I was amazed you had time to blog as much as you did. I am really just curious, as you consider career changes, what direction are you looking or are you considering a bit of stay at home time with the little ones? I think this is something we all struggle with, whether we admit it or not, and the question becomes whether choosing a different career will really be less demanding. Maybe it is something you can’t know until you make the jump! Thank you for being honest.
Everyone needs to do what is right for them. Not what others expect of them.
To be honest, I haven’t really narrowed my searching down to one particular direction and I have not ruled out just staying home with my babies and playing with Play-Doh. That would take a radical restructuring of my life, but there isn’t anything that is off the table.
For those of you also considering a new career, the listed salary for a GM of a Taco Bell is 70K according to Monster dot com.
Why is it that women won’t let their idols make choices? The very freedom they idolize them for fighting for.
We don’t idolize them for fighting for freedom. We idolize them for appearing to have the life we want for ourselves. If you thought this was about “freedom”, you’re deluded.
As a computational biologist, my path into science has been from a very lucrative and high-paying field of computer science toward academic life science. Given this background, it has always shocked me how academia is really held up as the be-all and end-all of scientific work (where it is not really so in engineering-y fields). There is just SO MUCH MORE that smart, motivated people can do, particularly those with some awesome science skills. My husband and I always talk about taking turns trying new jobs, and while I’m not sure if this will ever work out (his startup SBIR just got rejected, so there goes his chance for now), I like the idea of following a path of personal happiness, rather than a cookie-cutter career path defined many years ago.
I think moving jobs/fields can help both academia AND science. Students/trainees could really learn from mentors/professors who have left the ivory tower for even a few moments of their lives, and I think industry or academic administration or even Taco Bell management can learn from people moving on from the ‘trenches’ of academic training. So as a big Isis fan, I’m excited for whatever move may come along!!
I read the storify before I did the blog and my immediate reaction is not that you’re leaving science. (Are you?) You can have alternative careers in science which are not as demanding right? I’m a graduate student who really enjoys research but I know for sure that I don’t want to end up on the tenure track. There are also evolving field in research which move scientists away from the bench (such as Bioinformatics) that leaving one aspect does not mean leaving the field. I also don’t believe in the “do one thing your whole life” notion. There is so much else out there. I have so much admiration for people who walk away from high power, high stress jobs to find fulfilling careers in entirely different areas. I believe that this is in some part spurred on by the issue of retirement. You only have so much time to save up enough money to live off on when you retire and so you slave away at a job to accumulate that nest egg. You are only “useful” for a short amount of time so why not maximize your efforts. But what if we didn’t have to retire and that you aren’t considered useless or past your prime at 70? Why can’t one take time to enjoy their family esp when kids are young and re-enter the workforce when they care to? Why not have careers which the more aged among us can aspire to with decreasing workload but with enough income to live off comfortably (relative term). Yes, I understand we can’t provide jobs for people who are young and actively looking ….here my frustrated rambling ends
Like we said on attachbaby’s post, academia is JUST A JOB. And preferences and abilities are not the same thing. nicoleandmaggie.wordpress.com/2013/02/27/academia-is-just-a-job/
When you’re smart and hardworking and educated and have a nice money buffer, there’s a lot of options out there about what to do. Sticking on one path or searching different paths is just a matter of preferences. On Wandering Scientist’s blog, she talks a lot about a specific personality type called “Scanner” which she is and which we’re pretty sure my husband is. That’s a perfectly valid path! And we’re glad that we have the luxury of being able to stop one or both of our jobs and try something else. Many of our relatives do not have that choice– they work at jobs they often hate because they need the money. They don’t have to worry about “fulfillment” or “happiness” or any of these other Paradox of Choice problems. But we wouldn’t trade with them. And that’s a pretty good reason to get the education and skills and work-ethic –to have lots of good options to choose from.
If I leave my TT job it will most likely be because I want to live in Northern CA and am not really eligible for tenure at Stanford.
#delurks
I’ve been reading you for the past four years or so and as far as I’m concerned, even though I’m female, I’m neither a mommy nor a scientist nor do I aspire to become one or the other. (That must be a huge weight of your shoulders. You’re welcome.)
From my rambling vantage point I can tell you that when I saw the Storify of the conversation, I was afraid this would prove to be the final nail in your blog coffin.
I would argue that you are (and continue to be) a good role model whether you stay or not. You created a hugely demanding career and a family life while successfully communicating it to an ever increasing audience. The fact that you consider doing something different with your life won’t change any of your previous achievements. Following more than one dream seems all the more impressive to me.
And please continue to blog sporadically about your life as a French cooking, porn writing, fuck-tastic fighter pilot. It will be hilarious.
The nail in my blog coffin? Seriously?
Hey you’re silent for months and then start talking about leaving the holy land of ACADEMIA. Clearly you’re crazy and there’s no telling what you might do.
(Also I like my metaphors and flowery language)
I wish you well with whatever you do Dr. Isis, and am happy to shared this. I hope you’ll let us know what your decision is, if/when you make it.
I am not a woman (last time I checked) but I was a scientist that was also teaching to a certain extent. And about five years ago, just as everything was getting ready to take off, I gave it up to start a family. Not that I couldn’t have been a dad in science, but I knew I wouldn’t have been the dad I wanted to be if I was sleeping on a couch in my office because I JUST HAVE TO GET ONE MORE PCR COMPLETED!
I am extremely happy in my current situation (full time writer) but there are times when I regret leaving science and don’t rule out going back at some point.
But when I read a post like this it reminds why i made the choice I made and makes me feel better about making it.
Anyway, that is just a long-winded way of saying “thanks” and “good luck!”
Dr. Isis. I started reading your blog when I started my post doc and continued to read you when I left my post doc for a position in industry. Finding your blog saved my sanity – I didn’t understand how powerful following a blog could be until I read yours. I just want you to know that I still remember the posts you wrote about my questions – should l wear red stillettos to give a talk? Is it okay to cry in front of people when I just couldn’t represent being a “woman in science?” I imagine you will always be a great internet mentor for me whether you’re blogging about it or not.
I know I love the image I have of you – the super hot my science is so salient right now mother of two whose make-up is flawless and shoes are to die for. But, I know you are a real person too.
Amen to this post! When I left physics grad school everyone was like, “WHAAAA? You can’t leave! Think of the future wimmins who need you to pave their way!”
And that is no way to treat women, who should be entitled to make career decisions without everyone getting up in arms about what it means for women as a whole. When a dude leaves a career, we don’t take it as evidence that men can’t do things!
Honestly, I don’t see what the big deal is. If you were working at biotech firm A and decided that you’d be happier at biotech firm B, no one would give a shit. People act like switching from academia to industry (I refuse to use the term “dropping out of academia”) is heresy or failure or something. Ridiculous.
As for me, I have no plans to retire, ever. I had my “time off” when I needed it most, i.e. when my kids were small. I can see cutting back my hours when I get to 70, but entering a phase in which I sit around and do nothing? ((shudder))
Women catch so much flak over this, whereas this issue has nothing to do with gender. Isis, if someone is telling you that they don’t like your decisions (or the lack thereof) because you are dong something associated with being a woman, then that’s just showing a mirror back on themselves. Our priorities as parents, researchers and fun-havers are entirely personal. I’m finding I don’t have time to be anything else other than a daddy and a scientist, either. Good on ya. Find what makes you happy.
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I agree with all the commenters here who feel that pursuing a non-academic career track is NOT a sign of failure or some kind of cop-out. Doing it by choice, as in your case, is nothing less than an indicator of staggering success. I’ve known other women (and men) who have followed a similar path, and they are all doing fabulously. People who feel that an academic position is the ONLY job option and ONLY measure of success as a scientist can go fuck themselves and fuck their narrow little minds. I really resent that culture. Good for you, and all the best to you and your family. I hope you keep blogging.
Now I want to write porn.
Change is good. Unless you are an engineer in which case it is downright scary, because it means you might have to have something other than mac n’ cheese for dinner on tues nights and wear the red pants on thurs.
Hi Dr Isis,
I’ve been following your blog for a few years now and have loved your take on all things science and shoes (oh the shoes!). I’ve been wrangling with the notion of leaving academia for about a year now. I’m 32 years old (uterus containing member of the species) and 5yrs post-doc, so it’s sort of jump now, or be pushed when the funding dries up. (You know it will, I’m Aussie, so there’s no such thing as tenure track here.) I’m struggling with the notion that leaving academia is considered a ‘failure’, but also have come to the conclusion that for what we put in and sacrifice, it’s just not worth the reward (monetarily and intellectually). I have friends/family whose annual bonus is larger than my salary – for similar work hours/stress levels/responsibilities/education level.
It’s also a bit shit that it’s just the women who leave academia that are seen as failures or unable to have ‘balanced it all’. No one freaking raises an eyebrow when a bloke does.
I still think you’re pretty tops, and you’ve definitely not ‘let the sisterhood down’!
@Potnia Theron– An untrue stereotype about engineers. Not sure where you came up with that as it does not describe a single engineer that I know, and I know a lot of engineers.
@n&m. This is from my partner who is an engineer (for whom these things are very true). They are likely more true of older engineers, MechE’s, gearheads and the like (of both genders). I know many other engineers for whom it is certainly not true. Apologies, I humble myself in your general direction.
For whatever it’s worth, I also agree with the general opinion here. Why in God’s name would you continue following a path that doesn’t make you happy? That would be absolutely insane; misery is not a way to spend your life. For example, I quit law school halfway through. I had developed $120,000 in student loans by then. I was miserable, so the question was whether to put another $60K into it and at least have the qualification, or cut my losses. I am REALLY suffering with the loans, but the worst day of my new life is better than any day doing what I hated.
In other news, I truly believe that no matter what people do, they will regret something. How could they not! So that shouldn’t be news.
I have been a long time follower of your blog, and you have gotten me through many steps of my scientific career. I follow your blog not because you are a women scientist in academia, but because you are a woman who is honest and true to herself and who shares her trials with candor and humor. Reevaluating your career and changing directions takes courage and I admire you for being so open with all of us about the process. Whether you change paths or not, I just hope you never stop blogging!
Very selfishly, I actually feel a sense of relief at your admission. I’ve been reading your blog for years, first as a grad student and now as someone in industry. After years of struggling with my PhD advisor, he decided to stop paying me. We reached an impasse with a technical problem in my research, he had no trust in my effort or abilities, and my department wouldn’t support me because I hadn’t defended my proposal (even though I finished all my courses and passed comprehensive exams and my advisor wouldn’t let me defend). I’ve only ever wanted to be a scientist and struggle with having “failed out”. I was jobless for 7 months. In December, I decided to take a job in Quality Control and Quality Assurance. My skills as a scientist are highly valued and “rare.” I am constantly applauded for my “exceptional work ethic.” My boss even tells me to go home when I’m staying late (and I’m salary!). I’ve been learning lots of new science and working towards consumer safety in a supportive company. I haven’t felt this successful since high school. I’ve already been promoted, gotten a raise, and had multiple people hired to work under me. I’m still me – still a scientist. But I struggle with feeling like I’ve failed, let everyone and myself down, and like I have to go back and finish my PhD. My self worth is so low that I’m usually shocked to get support and praise. But, in these few months, I’ve lost weight, made better friends than I ever did in my lab, spent lots of time legitimately doing science, and accomplished more than my new boss thought possible. All with a seemingly unrelated job as a failed-scientist. Maybe if you’re looking at options for achieving happiness, there’s hope I can someday feel like less of a failure for how things turned out.
I am more encouraged by the fact that you’re questioning your career goals. At the age of 35, I’ve put off having a family for a decade as I developed my career (not in academia). I find myself now struggling to be motivated to advance my career any further. Partly because we’ve decided now that we want a family, and I feel like I shouldn’t commit to big career goals when I plan to go on mat leave. Partly maybe because I just don’t want to do it anymore. I struggle with the fact that my favorite part of my job is the part where I travel the country doing field biology, and that part of my career is fading as I become more senior (hence expensive). Also, being away from home for long periods no longer excites me when I have to leave my husband at home. So I totally understand where you’re coming from. What once seemed like the perfect career is thrown into a different light when you have a family at home. Your struggle makes me feel a bit better about my own – at least I know I’m not alone in my career doubts.
pish posh, i don’t know a single engineer who would wear red pants.
Dr. Isis, I love you and want you to do whatever you like.
Even though after having kids, I made the choice to stay in academic science, and it has worked out ok. There are times when they only see the top of my head over the computer for weeks at a time and I have lots of guilt, but it has been my choice to continue with this academic career. I too cannot accomplish everything in 40 hours per week. In the end, do I every day think that the grass may be greener somewhere else? Yes, every day, at least once. Now that grants are impossible I do have a plan B which looks nicer with every unscored or unfunded grant I get back. Everyone struggles with this career choice, more now than at any time I think, if you look toward NIH to support your lab.
In the end you have to make the right decision for you and for your family. And whatever decision you make, will be the right one in the end. I love one line from a movie–”It’ll be alright in the end, if it is not alright–its not yet the end.” I really do believe that.
Good luck in your choice. but do still blog. I love mommy, feminist and shoe discussions.
If this blog turns into a porn blog, I bet you could make good money on ad space. Also, the world needs more hilarious porn writing.
mommy, shoes, feminism and porn would be ok too
Heh. Could you imagine the intertubez reaction if I made this a feminist porn blog?
I admire you for stepping back and reassessing your career direction. But, please no porn blog, because then I wouldn’t be able to read it at work….
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Go for it, whatever you want to do next. Your most perceptive comment is that, after 10 yrs, in many other fields, people re-think their skills, priorities and interests and often move on – sometimes to a different role in the same profession and sometimes into something completely different … why we cast aspersions at research personnel who chose to do the same is a blight on ‘us’ as a community, not on the individuals who want to spread their wings.
There is no point wearing yourself out for something you don’t feel excites you any more, and there is no point ‘waiting until you are retired’ to follow some other interests – you don’t know how well and active you will feel then, and in any case, unless you have a range of things you have already tried and have some expertise in, you won’t take up very new things as you get older.
NOW is your time to go and fly a little higher, or a little further away, or just enjoy fluttering near the flowers closer to home.
Just do it. Whatever ‘it’ happens to be. You have ‘done good’ in your profession so far, and that is something to be personally proud of.
all the very best,
d.
… and I meant to say, echoing @hannahonu, that a good training in science is helpful for whatever comes next. As an extreme example, someone I know who has a science+law degree and now works in the Law, said she heard a senior person from the Land and Environment Court down here where we live, comment that he WISHED he had done science as well as law when he was at Uni.
And as mentioned, look at all the good and competent engineers who end up ‘in management’ and the mathematicians who are in the financial/business areas. We don’t look down our noses at them.
Whatever you do, you will do with ‘heart’, you are just that type of person, and that is a good thing for everyone.
d.
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You’re a superstar to me. It takes a massive amount of guts and a spine of steel to keep your sense of humor through all the bizarre hoops we jump through to stay in the business of science. The final insult is the insinuation that moving out of academia is a sign of failure. Whatever you are doing in six months, I’m sure you’ll be kicking ass at it. And if you keep blogging about it, I’ll continue to be inspired by your strong scientist woman example even if your career path is a little less similar to mine.
Hi Isis!
Over the years of following your blog, I myself have had a baby, finished a Master’s and become a stay-at-home mom. Through it all I read your posts with a certain amount of incredulity. “How can Isis juggle all that while I can barely find time to brush my teeth in the morning?” But I realize now, as I drink my coffee in my rocking chair while my son naps, that there are only 24 hours in the day, that there is no such thing as “having it all”, and that we all make painful sacrifices for family and career, no matter how “together” we may seem. The choice to stay home was perhaps the most truly feminist thing I have ever done, because I acknowledged that I had the right to choose what was best for ME, rather than what would appear most impressive to everyone else. It was a difficult choice but I find now that I am more creative and sane than I have ever been.
I guess my point is that women really can do anything, but that is very different from being able to do EVERYTHING.
So good luck, Isis!
“I applaud the people who can do their job in forty hours. That has never been my reality. So, if I am going to be working as hard as I am at the expense of time with my family, it’s worth asking whether it’s really something I want to be doing.”
Amen!! Thank you SO MUCH for being so honest! Let me reassure you that as a young woman sans kids now, you have not in the slightest stomped on my dreams of having my cake and eating it, too. But I find your take really refreshing and, perhaps perversely, very reassuring. Because if you *might* do it, then maybe I can, too. I hate those out there who make women feel that saying anything along the lines of “my career is taking a hit because of my family” or vice versa is some sort of disservice to the younger generation. I’m not calling the women who share their extremely positive advice about the balancing act liars — it’s just that I don’t recognize myself in them. So, thanks … and thanks again for speaking up.
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Quite revealing….look frontward to coming back again.